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livius drusus
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Registered: Dec 2004
Location:
Posts: 4

quote:
Originally posted by JMO4now
It seems to me that if you believe CTV is spamming on those boards, the thing to do would be to respond to the particular posts by the particular nics that you believe are doing so--ON THOSE BOARDS. Point the problem out there, so that the credibility is lost on those forums.


Well, of course when detected on a home board you can confront the spammer, but I don't think it's really possible for a normal person to follow him around revealing his lack of credibility on thousands of random boards. I mean, I guess I'd do it if Corona paid me, but that would kind of make me a spammer too. A parasitical one at that.

quote:
I guess I just don't see the logic in signing on to CTV to nag the posters here about it. I mean, we didn't do it!


Awareness raising, perhaps? This board is property of CTV, after all, as well as an online community, so it seems reasonable to raise the issue here. I don't see how it's nagging the posters here about anything. I read no such tone in the OP but even if I did, a single contained thread doth not a nag make, imo.

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New Post 12-07-2004 07:12 PM
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livius drusus
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Registered: Dec 2004
Location:
Posts: 4

quote:
Originally posted by JMO4now Unfortunately, whatever litigation that will ultimately shut down such viral advertisers will probably also stop all of us "local yokels" from sharing our ideas of products.


I'm not sure where legislation comes into play at this point. Economic pressure might be effective, for instance, without government involvement, particularly if as Corona says, CourtTV consumers protest the practice.

quote:
Yesterday there was a thread I found very heartwarming, in which someone couldn't find a toy for her child--multiple posters did web searches until someone found a place with the toy in stock... A real joy to see people helping each other out, but I'm sure that type of request/response will have to be outlawed under any laws preventing viral advertisers from doing so.


Why? I mean, what legal counter to viral marketing do you envision and how would it block a group of people searching for a special toy?

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New Post 12-07-2004 07:20 PM
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JMO4now
Senior Member

Registered: Oct 2004
Location:
Posts: 342

quote:
Originally posted by livius drusus


I'm not sure where legislation comes into play at this point. Economic pressure might be effective, for instance, without government involvement, particularly if as Corona says, CourtTV consumers protest the practice.



Why? I mean, what legal counter to viral marketing do you envision and how would it block a group of people searching for a special toy?



My comments were in regards to the litigation that is most likely on the horizon about this issue. Just like the e-mail SPAM litigation that is taking place now. Common sense would say that, if viral marketing is truly becoming mainstream, then lawsuits would take place on the part of the owners of the forums. After all, they are footing the bill for equipment, storage, etc. of these SPAM posts.

As laws are put on the books, and as forums strive to prevent such advertising in their own rulebooks, they will have no choice but to enforce these things equally. That means that the guy who asks for product referrals will be equally covered under these rules as the mass marketing posters are.

IMO.

BTW, am I the only poster you are choosing to argue with about this?

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New Post 12-07-2004 07:40 PM
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pirate jenny
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Registered: Dec 2004
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Posts: 2

quote:
Originally posted by JMO4now

Unfortunately, whatever litigation that will ultimately shut down such viral advertisers will probably also stop all of us "local yokels" from sharing our ideas of products. Yesterday there was a thread I found very heartwarming, in which someone couldn't find a toy for her child--multiple posters did web searches until someone found a place with the toy in stock... A real joy to see people helping each other out, but I'm sure that type of request/response will have to be outlawed under any laws preventing viral advertisers from doing so. A shame for everyone, really, to see the life sucked out of the internet that way!



It doesn't have to be against the law, though. It would suffice if companies just realized that this kind of promotion doesn't work. Viral marketing works both ways, and I can tell you that, personally, my opinion of Court TV is tainted by all of this. And I'm sure I'm not alone.

Legal measures are only necessary when some party refuses to abide by the standards of behavior agreed upon by the community at large. I think it's a fair bet to say that most people agree that abusing community forums and using others' property for the sole purpose of advertising your products and services is unacceptable. It's not a sustainable model. It just cannot continue and be allowed to spread, or we will all end up losing our communities. It happened with Usenet. It kind of happened with email. And now, it's happening with discussion boards, too. Laws don't really work, anyway. The penalties for spamming are just one of the costs of doing business for spammers. The same thing will happen with these viral marketing techniques if it's allowed to continue. Imagnie the discussion boards you frequent as full of spam as your email is today. (Moreso, actually, because you can't very well keep a public discussion board obscured the way you can with your email address.)

The only way to stop this is to make businesses realize that this technique does not work, that people resent having their communities exploited like this, and that we are aware of what they're doing and are determined to stop it. Viral marketing works both ways. Any short-term viewership gains will be far outweighed by the general negative impressions that this sort of behavior creates. And is there really any doubt that, if people were aware of the tactic, they'd disapprove? Well, there are those of us who are committed to bringing this tactic to the attention of the people it's designed to target. That is all we need to do to turn the viral aspect around.

I've personally emailed Court TV about this several times already, and I've never gotten a response. People have tried to start threads here to get their attention at least a couple of times, but the posts were deleted and the posters banned without response.

It's good to see this subject coming up here, on their own discussion boards, among their own viewership. If Court TV gets the message now that these tactics are just not cool with people, and that they are not going to work, we can stop them now, before they have a chance to catch on with everyone else out there who has somethign to sell and spiral completely out of control.

Thanks to everyone here, BTW, for listening to this, and for recognizing the issue. If they get the message that even their loyal viewership has a problem with these things, it may well make them reconsider what they're doing.

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New Post 12-07-2004 07:45 PM
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KittenKaboodle
Senior Member

Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Into Mischief
Posts: 101

I think the problem with the kind of advertising being discussed is that it seems deceitful.
When an advertisement runs on television, everyone knows it's an advertisement.
When you see a billboard or hear a commercial on radio you know someone's being paid to try to sell you something.
But the tactics used in 'viral marketing' put people on guard, make them suspicious, and may even provoke negative responses from consumers.
How effective will this 'new' approach to advertising be, do you think?

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New Post 12-07-2004 07:53 PM
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livius drusus
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Registered: Dec 2004
Location:
Posts: 4

quote:
Originally posted by JMO4now
My comments were in regards to the litigation that is most likely on the horizon about this issue. Just like the e-mail SPAM litigation that is taking place now. Common sense would say that, if viral marketing is truly becoming mainstream, then lawsuits would take place on the part of the owners of the forums. After all, they are footing the bill for equipment, storage, etc. of these SPAM posts.


It's possible, but I don't think it's likely. There are lots and lots of forums out there, and most of them are run by individuals with shared interests, not coporations with platoons of litigators on retainer. That's one of the reasons posting once on 3000 message boards is so effective: who's going to sue you over one post? A ban is so much easier.

quote:
As laws are put on the books, and as forums strive to prevent such advertising in their own rulebooks, they will have no choice but to enforce these things equally. That means that the guy who asks for product referrals will be equally covered under these rules as the mass marketing posters are.


I haven't seen the viral posters soliciting product referrals.

quote:
BTW, am I the only poster you are choosing to argue with about this?


Um... You're the only one making the argument with which I disagree, yes, but I don't think charcaterizing my responses as arguing is particularly accurate.

In any case, I apologize for crossing your boundaries and will refrain from replying to you in the future if that is your preference.

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New Post 12-07-2004 07:58 PM
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corona688
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Registered: Dec 2004
Location:
Posts: 7

quote:
Originally posted by JMO4now
As laws are put on the books, and as forums strive to prevent such advertising in their own rulebooks, they will have no choice but to enforce these things equally. That means that the guy who asks for product referrals will be equally covered under these rules as the mass marketing posters are.

IMO.

The issue is consent. If you deliberately invited commercial advertisements, then they're not spam. Outlawing spam doesn't outlaw all commercial emails, the same way that outlawing rape doesn't outlaw consentual sex.
quote:
BTW, am I the only poster you are choosing to argue with about this?
You're just the one who's here. There aren't too many other posts and posters in this thread that seem to invite responses at the moment, and I'm watching this thread like a hawk because others like it have been known to disappear.

I also would guess that people like responding to your posts. You make a good impression.

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New Post 12-07-2004 08:02 PM
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SnowLeopard
Senior Member

Registered: Oct 2003
Location: here and there
Posts: 1309

Sadly, perhaps, down the road we'll end up being charged for things are currently free.

Why do businesses hate spam e-mail but don't mind junk postal mail?

Because there is an established constituency that makes money from junk postal mail. Several, in fact.

Whereas spam creates traffic on businesses' netwroks without creating any revenue.

If it cost 10 cents to send an advertising e-mail, you wouldn't hear a peep about spam. One, becasue there would be less of it, and two, the ISPs getting a cut of that 10 cents would be fat and happy. The Postal Service loves bulk mail; it comes all nicely sorted by 9-digit zip code and the USPS makes a fortune on it.

The the other consideration is the annoying fact that SPAM WORKS. Everyone claims to hate it, but the e-mails for pay websites and products have to be attracting some paying customers, else the e-mails wouldn't exsit.

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New Post 12-07-2004 08:06 PM
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JMO4now
Senior Member

Registered: Oct 2004
Location:
Posts: 342

Pirate Jenny

I understand that, in a perfect world, legalities would not have to take place. However, IMO, the lessons of e-mail SPAM indicate that this is just not going to happen. I believe that, unfortunately, this is an issue that WILL end up clogging our courts.

Believe me, there are plenty of cases I see (as a bystander) put into case law that I wish had never been contested in the first place. Take for example the LAPD's "stripping cop," selling his X-rated videos on E-bay and then telling his employer that his Freedom of Speech was being violated. They had asked him to stop using his work paraphernalia to promote his self-serving perversities. That guy should have had some honor to begin with, but no... the case went all the way to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court ruled against him, and now there is a Supreme Court case ruling that supports employers rights in squashing the free speech of their employees. What future cases will this ruling impact? Will it be watered down to subvert the free speech of citizens who want to use their free speech on important social issues and not pornography?

Here is a link to more info about that case (thanks to CTV poster Wolfie for providing this!)...

http://boards.courttv.com/showthrea...threadid=189320

Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that it will ultimately be litigation that forces responsibility onto these viral advertisers. IMO, without *direct* purchasing dollars at stake from the public to wage economic warfare, CTVs motivation will remain with the advertising dollars it gains. Of course I could be wrong on this!

I just don't believe that the public could ever force enough pressure to stop such viral advertising--if public pressure could stop such things then e-mail SPAM would be history! I mean, I literally STOPPED my e-mail account for more than a year due to the fact that the hassles of dealing with e-mail SPAM outweighed the benefits of a personal e-mail address. This was money directly out of Earthlink's pocket. In the end, it is the e-mail providers suing the SPAMmers, and I think it will be the forum sponsors that end up suing the viral advertisers.

All of this is IMO.

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New Post 12-07-2004 08:07 PM
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corona688
Member

Registered: Dec 2004
Location:
Posts: 7

quote:
Originally posted by KittenKaboodle
I think the problem with the kind of advertising being discussed is that it seems deceitful.
When an advertisement runs on television, everyone knows it's an advertisement.
When you see a billboard or hear a commercial on radio you know someone's being paid to try to sell you something.
But the tactics used in 'viral marketing' put people on guard, make them suspicious, and may even provoke negative responses from consumers.
How effective will this 'new' approach to advertising be, do you think?

I have a bit of a theory... back in the 60's or 70's, there was a study published showing how students learned better in classes that used flashy presentations with color images and such. What they didn't realize, the students didn't learn better because of the color slides, but because it was different -- color slides were a rarity back then, and it commanded attention. Now that anyone can make color slides with a computer and a inkjet, everyone's used to them. People don't pay special attention to them anymore.

Same goes for ads, would be my guess. People have gotten too good at tuning out traditional forms of advertisements. Things to filter out ads, like tivo and internet ad-blockers, are making it even harder. So new forms of advertising are being tried out, in the hope that things we don't recognize as ads will make a bigger impression. The trick is, we're not supposed to recognize them, and that's why we distrust them -- for them to be effective they must fool the consumer.

Last edited by corona688 on 12-07-2004 at 08:19 PM

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